Coffee With Louis

great pic of coffee and blog louis..

2011-02-25T09:03:18.350Z

great pic of coffee and blog louis..

I've explained the rules. Please abide by the...

2010-12-08T01:40:19.337Z

I've explained the rules. Please abide by them and we will have a full and honest exchange of views, otherwise it would be better if you don't visit this site.

That seems a bit of a bizarre attitude to take tow...

2010-12-07T23:56:29.528Z

That seems a bit of a bizarre attitude to take towards anonymity, to be honest. Who they are is irrelevant to the validity of their point and to suggest otherwise is argumentum ad hominem. If the claims are false, refute the claims, don't just dismiss the person making them.

Dear Anonymous, I am afraid that I won't respo...

2010-10-28T11:59:47.134+01:00

Dear Anonymous, I am afraid that I won't respond or reply to anonymous comment-posters unless there is obvious reason for anonymity in their comment. That seems not to be the case in your instance. You accuse and challenge me without having the courage to say who or where you are, and I find that to be lacking in Christian grace and kindness. It is akin to an ambush. If you return to this blog, please be more open and you will find that I respond in kind. Bless you.

Louis, your memory is at fault. What the issue was...

2010-10-27T00:01:28.884+01:00

Louis, your memory is at fault. What the issue was at the 1992 I think it was General Assembly was whether it was lawful for a Kirk Session to resolve at the beginning of a discussion about increasing the number of elders to resolve that no women could be considered.
The Principal Clerk had ruled that it was not lawful.
Quite clearly such a resolution is contrary to the law of the Kirk that women should be ordained on the same terms as men.
You know that this was the position of the Kirk when you got ordained. Most of the 103 odd people who dissented with you were old hands and perhaps were ordained before the law was changed.
You however were ordained into a Church where there were ordained women. How dare you seek to take the moral high ground. It is you who are being faithless of your ordination vows. You knew what you ware coming into, and if you didn't like it you shouldn't. It is as if you had become a Roman priest and then were whinging about celibacy.
How dare you claim to speak for the Evangelicals. Your claiming to be an Evangelical is as objectionable as the Romans claiming to be the only Catholics.
It is you who are unorthodox. I am an evangelical who wants to see what the Word of God really says, and be faithful to that.
Don't try the Westminster Documents. Remember the MacLeod Campbell case where MacLeod Campbell was in error in terms of the Confession but his Nature of the Atonement was a landmark of thought about what Christ really did for us - Louis have you ever read the Nature of the Atonement? Have you ever even held it in your hand?
Sorry, it is probably you who are the hetrodox, certainly in the Kirk, Why do you assume that your hetrodoxical views have some strange legitimacy

Strange to say I was encouraged to read your posti...

2010-09-08T08:00:06.994+01:00

Strange to say I was encouraged to read your posting about the Kirk sleeping because it helped me to realise that there are many ministers who feel as troubled as I do. Really there is no such thing as a broad church. There is an orthodox church with tares in it or there is a heterodox church with wheat in it. Since 2009 the church of Scotland has been moving from one to the other. If the 2011 Assembly confirms that we are heterodox the position of
traditional ministers and members will be untenable. I personally believe that our communion services will be invalidated and are already seriously compromised. Intuitively I think many are aware that something is horribly wrong. Years of progressive, egalitarian ideology at Assembly after Assembly have finally given way to moral collapse and open apostacy. At the very time when the church of Scotland should be fighting against secularism for the sake of the nation it is surrendering to it. This is deeply worrying. What we are feeling is also what is happening in other denominations too. They are being ripped apart. We see that it is not possible for orthodoxy and heterodoxy to coexist.

Tony Foreman

I entirely agree with this Louis. Bees do their mo...

2010-07-29T15:32:43.438+01:00

I entirely agree with this Louis. Bees do their most important work outside of the hive, not inside discussing it! Although I have to ask - the post finishes very abruptly. Has a final point gone missing?

Gavin

It reminds me of something CS Lewis talked about i...

2010-07-29T10:10:38.275+01:00

It reminds me of something CS Lewis talked about in the Screwtape Letters, a phenomenon he called 'The Church And'. Let the church be 'about' something, was his diabolical advice. The church and social activism. The church and gender equality. The church and unity... Then, have the tacked-on extra slowly consume the original church and its function, so that (for example) unity becomes the primary thing, not the worship of God.

Lewis explored the idea in much greater depth in 'Mere Christianity' (ie Christianity without additions) and I wonder, sometimes, if that book shouldn't be compulsory annual reading for senior church figures...

Unity is, fundamentally, a good thing - there would be no purpose to 'the communion of saints' if it were not. But there are bad sacrifices that can be made in its name, bad decisions that use it as their justification, and there is bad prioritising that can have it as a figurehead. The foremost concern is and must always be to serve God faithfully. It is in so doing that we will find the common ground between us.

Gavin

many Anglican priests and congregations believe th...

2010-07-26T22:01:57.730+01:00

many Anglican priests and congregations believe themselves to have been left with no options but to leave the denomination, departing without being allowed to take their church buildings or assets with them.
They don't belong to them they are only custodians in time so they can not take them anywhere.

Couldn't agree more, Louis. Not in my name ei...

2010-07-05T17:12:43.021+01:00

Couldn't agree more, Louis. Not in my name either!

Whole other but kind of related topic: Iain Campbe...

2010-06-29T14:24:46.431+01:00

Whole other but kind of related topic: Iain Campbell posted on Reformation21 today about "pulpit methodology" (http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2010/06/some-thoughts-on-pulpit-method.php). I know you like to preach through the whole of a bible book and not thematically/from isolated texts. I wondered if maybe you could say a wee bit about why that is/ if you had any thoughts on Campbell's post?

"In the Kirk's rush to be 'inclusi...

2010-06-26T13:53:19.805+01:00
"In the Kirk's rush to be 'inclusive' it is the evangelicals who are being excluded."

I wonder if the problem is that inclusiveness has gone from being a practical goal to being an ideological principle. When inclusiveness is a practical goal, the aim is to include as many people as reasonably possible, and not to exclude anyone unnecessarily. This, it seems to me, was the pattern of the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, when inclusiveness becomes an ideological principle, then it must, of necessity, exclude those who seem to reject inclusiveness. In a church where inclusiveness becomes a tenet of orthodoxy, then obviously there is no room for those who are perceived as being opposed to it. Logically (though paradoxically) they must be excluded.

If my analysis is correct, something good has basically been turned into an idol. And that is often the fate of good things.

Your last three posts, by the way, are moving, and (IMHO) very good. You are in my prayers. May you be greatly encouraged in your ministry, and may there be many faithful people who will stand with you and be with you in dark times and places.

I've been trying to think how to reply to your...

2010-06-25T13:14:58.153+01:00
I've been trying to think how to reply to your comment and have decided that unless we're willing going to go round in circles, we'll just have to agree to disagree :)
I think you're right that, with regards to gifts of the Holy Spirit, "We ought perhaps to highlight their presence more often, but any inadequacy in that regard does not deny the reality of their importance and place in our congregational life". I think we're great at talking about the Father and the Son but can be guilty of talking about the Spirit in only abstract terms. As one of the trinity, he needs more credit!

"Without evangelical and orthodox Christian b...

2010-06-25T12:47:56.608+01:00
"Without evangelical and orthodox Christian belief, is the Kirk a church at all?"
I think that's the HUGE question and, as we seem to move towards a Kirk devoid of orthodox Christian belief, it's the one that breaks my heart the most.
I always come back to Daniel's prayer:
"Now therefore, O our God, listen to the prayer of your servant and to his pleas for mercy, and for your own sake, O Lord, make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate. O my God, incline your ear and hear. Open your eyes and see our desolations, and the city that is called by your name. For we do not present our pleas before you because of our righteousness, but because of your great mercy. O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention and act. Delay not, for your own sake, O my God, because your city and your people are called by your name.”(Daniel 9:17-19 ESV)
Only by God's mercy can the Kirk be saved.

I do think that it would be wrong to take the view...

2010-06-21T23:10:56.422+01:00
I do think that it would be wrong to take the view that the planning of corporate worship is a mere matter of 'just changing things from rotas'. The worship participants we have do change weekly, according to a rota, as you say, but each week the new set of worship leaders brings a differing set of gifts which they exercise under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Songs, hymns, scriptures, all age addresses, sermons, prayers - all of these are changing weekly. The Spirit is involved in the mid-week preparation that undergirds the Sunday exercise of these gifts. If I thought that was not the case, then I would have to conclude that most of what happens in our Sunday worship is mere human presumption.

Corporate prayer can take many forms. I agree. I'm sure that we could explore 'more inclusive forms' but what presently happens is pretty inclusive. I don't take the view that because some worshippers let their thoughts drift, that we should therefore find other ways to pray. I would rather just tell them not to let their thoughts drift, and to concentrate more. Simple. I am hoping that members of the congregation are not letting their thoughts wander, but I am also a realist. However, we should all be disciplining ourselves so that we remain focused. The congregation's 'Amen' is a vital and historic part of the participation in prayer of God's people. Silence, too, is something that we often build in to times of prayer, silence in which the Spirit has room to bring to remembrance those people and circumstances in need of God's grace.

The exercise of spiritual gifts is, like any area of the Christian life, going to be one in which there is room for development. If one is looking in our church worship for a presentation or manifestation of spiritual gifts as we might see it commonly in a Pentecostal church, it might be a temptation to think that there are no gifts on our Presbyterian shelves. However, I have long thought that spiritual gifts are given as our Christian birth right and inheritance, and that they are operative in the life of any truly biblical church. We have them, and we use them.

The gifts of teaching, healing, administration, words of knowledge and words of wisdom, distinguishing between spirits, leadership, mercy, service - all these are gifts that I recognize in the life and worship of our congregation. We ought perhaps to highlight their presence more often, but any inadequacy in that regard does not deny the reality of their importance and place in our congregational life.

Lots of change and variety takes place in our congregational worship each week. Anyone who looks into it closely will see that that is the case. We are always happy to change when we can see that God calls for it. We will know that God calls for it when we can also see that his word agrees with it.

Bless you.

I've posted fuller thoughts on my blog but . ....

2010-06-21T17:08:35.235+01:00
I've posted fuller thoughts on my blog but . . .

I like the stages of worship which you present. I don't think that they are rigid but, as you say, are helpful in guiding our worship. However, I'm not sure that we use the "room for considerable variety within those parts". I appreciate the effort it can take to plan a service beyond just replacing readings etc within the Order of Service but I love the services that have loads of energy put in to them. And when we really plan out a service, the Holy Spirit guides us - how much planning is he involved in when it's just changing things from rotas?

I've always thought prayer in congregational worship should be more inclusive of the congregation members. It's too easy to sit back and let someone else do the praying whilst your thoughts wonder when it is always led from the front. Involving the congregation teaches us all the joy of prayer and would encourage us to take that into the week with us.

You say that the gifts of the Spirit are "an important part of our church life" but how are we to convey that if they are not exercised within our main meetings.

Openness to the spontaneous moving/speaking of the Spirit is important. But I think being willing to change things within our established structure is as, if not more, important for us at this time, to keep worship fresh and engaging for all.

I think that Cranmer's Curate has got the E...

2010-06-19T23:08:04.572+01:00
I think that Cranmer's Curate has got the Episcopal Church pretty well summer up...

Make that "summed up".

I'm not here to chat about the weather.

:-)

"if the Bishops felt that Jefferts Schori ...

2010-06-19T23:06:19.157+01:00
"if the Bishops felt that Jefferts Schori was just the person to have something from God to say to the church at this critical and fragile moment, then those of us in the Church of Scotland can only give thanks that God delivered us when the SCIFU talks about denominational union foundered a couple of years back"

Quite. It speaks volumes about the Bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church.

I think that Cranmer's Curate has got the Episcopal Church pretty well summer up in this post.

I would venture to query your final comment, though. If you read Calvin, I think you will find that he was quite capable of preaching sermons on Old Testament passages without mentioning the name of Jesus once. On the other side of the coin, there are many false teachers who speak much about Jesus in their preaching. I would be cautious about assuming the worst about a preacher just because Jesus wasn't mentioned in a sermon.

A helpful post. On the subject of spontaneity in ...

2010-06-18T15:59:08.104+01:00
A helpful post.

On the subject of spontaneity in Christian meetings, I have 3 observations.

1) The Bible does not, as far as I can see, commend (or even mention) spontaneity per se. (It does, however commend being ready to do the will of God, which might mean change from an arranged plan.)

2) The Bible does not, as far as I can see, associate spontaneity with the work of the Holy Spirit.

3) Contemporary western culture values spontaneity greatly - much more than it values faithfulness or self-discipline. It is inevitable that cultural assumptions will affect the life of the church.

this makes me happy :)

2010-06-16T23:36:59.863+01:00
this makes me happy :)